MD and Chef Team - The Show!

What the ... is a Crucial Conversation?

March 23, 2021 Dr. Isabel MD & Culinary Nutrition Expert Chef Michael Season 2 Episode 7
MD and Chef Team - The Show!
What the ... is a Crucial Conversation?
Show Notes Transcript

So what kind of tips would you give to a parent whose kid is being bullied? She knows. He knows that they're being bullied. What would you recommend? 

There's a couple of things. What people don't understand is, I use this thing called the dialogue model, and in the dialogue model, it says with two people talking like we are right now, if there's even a hint of NO safety in the conversation, people won't talk about it. 

And this is where I encourage parents to talk to their children about creating safety for them to feel comfortable to talk about anything. Because a lot of times kids might be bullied. They don't want to say certain things because they feel scared. So they don't say they go underground and they suffer in silence. So a big part of that is a bit as a parent taking the step to actually create safety for your child, to have the conversation where you're saying no matter what I've said in the past, you know, sometimes like you mentioned, you know, our, my background too, my dad, I was born in South Africa, fairly robust dad, you know? 

Encouraging parents to take the step to say, I've got to create safety for my child, because one of the worst things, when I was doing a lot of the research and talking to parents who have lost kids through suicide, a lot of them didn't know. 

Clint is the author of a book called Lighting the Blue Flame. The book is written as a story of a teen who commits suicide because of being bullied, but wants his death to at least have an impact to change things so it doesn’t happen to others. So he decides to send those he believes are responsible for him being bullied, those who watched and laughed and the school for not doing enough.

Ultimately the school gets Clint involved as a character in the book to help them and the students deal with the suicide, but also look at how they can prevent it from happening again. Clint's character also helps the mother deal with her grieving process.

For more details about Clint, his website and Book - - -
https://www.all-about-psychology.com/lighting-the-blue-flame.html


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Hello everyone. And welcome to the MD and chef team. I'm Dr. Isabel medical doctor here and here at the Emdeon chef team. Our whole goal is to prevent and reverse disease and give hope in the process. And today we've got Clint Adams, which I am so excited to interview. And he's given me a little something to share with you. Before I start asking all these questions. He is a former Victorian police officer who studied psychology and later rehabilitation counseling, his police counseling, injury management, senior human resource rules, and working with asylum seekers have made him develop insights into the psychology and social interactions of individuals and trying conditions. 

2m 29s

Dr. Isabel MD 


Welcome Clint. 

2m 31s

Clint Adams 


Thanks for having me, Dr. Isabel, 

2m 33s

Dr. Isabel MD 


You're welcome. Where are you coming from? 

2m 36s

Clint Adams 


So I'm in Brisbane, Australia at the moment. 

2m 39s

Dr. Isabel MD 


I love Brisbane. 

2m 41s

Clint Adams 


It's a rainy at the moment that it's probably a bit like New Zealand, probably the last time I was there. It was a bit righty, but you know, it's usually pretty good. 

2m 50s

Dr. Isabel MD 


So tell me, tell us your story. We all have a story and I just love listening to people's stories. 

2m 57s

Clint Adams 


Sure. That's probably the story that led to what I'm doing now, which is in this suicide prevention and teaching resilience and that kind of stuff. So many years ago, I was very excited to get involved in psychology at a high school. I got really interested in movies like silence of the lambs and profiling and all that kind of stuff. And so it all kind of started there. So I ended up doing a science degree in psychology going into pharmacology as well. So kind of put my, you know, my foot in both parts around forensic psych, what would we name now? Now as forensic psychology was kind of the, the, the platform and the areas I was looking in and getting interested in. So I joined Victoria police, as you pointed out, became a police officer nearly six years as a police officer, but I won't bore you with details, but a few things changed along the way in my, my desire to go into the forensic side of it changed. 

3m 51s

Clint Adams 


I, I kind of became more interested in doing true counseling, which is why I did some more studies in the rehabilitation counseling place. Did those studies at Sydney university. And, and then I went into private practice and worked as a counselor or rehabilitation kind of counselor, you know, people who had physical injuries, but had real problems dealing with it psychologically. And that kind of stuff was probably the mainstay of, of that role. But then what was happening was having been an ex-cop the company I was working for. We're getting a lot of police members doing work with the police members. And they'd ask for me to work with them because obviously having been in the position and, and understanding a bit more. 

4m 34s

Clint Adams 


So I was getting a lot of police work at the time. So to the point where the police approached me and said, Hey, do you want to come work for us? And we want to bring this in-house we don't want to outsource it anymore. And so I basically became a counselor working with rehabilitation within the police force. So people with PTSD people, you know, police with issues and that kind of stuff. So, yeah, that's kind of how I got back into the place and it, and I worked for the police for another four or five years where I was doing rehabilitation that then developed into something called manager of the standards branch. We were looking at how we can do things better, how we can organize programs for the police, you know, to, to, I guess, enhance what they were doing. 

5m 17s

Clint Adams 


We were also looking at different ways of, of bringing more women into the organization, Christine Nixon now then commissioner was very heavily involved in trying to increase those numbers of women for, for a number of reasons. So the stats were showing that, you know, police incidents, where they were involved in, you know, maybe overstepping the Mark or were using excessive force tended to be with two male officers, rather than when a woman was present. It was a lot less likely to softer, shall I say it was, it was better, it was better. It was better. And you know, so there were combinations reasons for that is, you know, yes, the perpetrator might respond differently to two males than with a woman there. 

6m 3s

Clint Adams 


It was also, the women tended to be able to talk better about it, calm people down more. And obviously, you know, it was not an exact science, but ultimately each incident's different, but the stats were very, very clear that those kinds of things. So it got me really focusing on how I can use my, my psychology background and how we could run programs for the place about deescalation and, you know, using less force and all that kind of stuff. And so I kind of got involved in developing programs in my accidentally feel like, so anyway, Oh, I boy, again, but 

6m 35s

Dr. Isabel MD 


No, no, you're not boring me because I love, you know, it's so amazing how, when, when you're exposed to something, you see the questions and you're like, I can create something that will serve them. So I totally get that space. 

6m 51s

Clint Adams 


Okay. So look, I mean, I ultimately then decided I wanted to leave the police force and, and really just focus on working for companies. And I, I went into HR, Oh, wow. I sort of fell into HR in the police that I really enjoyed the change management side of working with teams that weren't functioning very well and, you know, developing that, developing leadership and all that. So that's kinda how my hijack career started. And then as I worked for different companies, I started trying to apply better ways of developing the teams, developing our leaders, developing their health and wellbeing. So back, you know, I'm talking early two thousands, there wasn't many people really talking about mental health and wellbeing programs. 

7m 34s

Clint Adams 


So I was probably, you know, one of the early people doing a lot of this stuff, cause I kind of wasn't my background. And I could see, you know, when I was working in the steel industry and timber industry and you know, they, they had jobs, heavy manual stuff and, and you tended to have, you know, people who maybe came from a poor background, so lower socioeconomic backgrounds who might've had some struggles along the way. And so, you know, as I've gone through this journey, you know, you see these risk factors, you feel like people with those lower socioeconomic backgrounds, people with, you know, maybe a single parent. And so there's a lot of these, these kinds of risk factors that come with poor mental health and, and having issues later on. 

8m 14s

Clint Adams 


So I was working with the teams on how I could help develop that without our team members and the people at the Workfront, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then, you know, I've done that in a number of organizations, but it kind of came to, and this is where the book and the stuff I'm doing now probably started to veer into this path of where I am now, where I was working for a, a hospital basically that had a lot of community health centers around the place. And as an executive team member, I've got access to the board reports and you know, what service providers we, we were providing to, to the people. 

8m 55s

Clint Adams 


And it was to see that this is young kids, 11 and 12 year olds who are on antidepressants, who scary 

9m 4s

Dr. Isabel MD 


Stuff, 

9m 6s

Clint Adams 


A hundred percent. And you as a doctor, obviously you don't understand that even more. And so those things really bugged me, you know, seeing kids on suicide watch as well, and, you know, having obesity problems and drug problems and alcohol problems and all this stuff. Anyway, then it got me thinking about what I could do again, thinking of risk factors. You know, when you're a cop, you obviously go into houses and you see these young kids, who've got parents who aren't very good role models and you, again, you think these poor kids are going to be the same parents in 20 years, time kind of stuff. And so, you know, it got me thinking about what I could do to use my background and psychology and the stuff that I've done with the police and how I could apply that to a school program for disadvantaged kids. 

9m 47s

Clint Adams 


This was kind of my, my thinking. I wanted to really try and help disadvantage kids who had these parents and have the, you know, it didn't probably have the greatest start to their lives with the people around them. So that's kind of how the whole thing started. So I developed a school program. I worked with a team of people who were, they worked for the education department, but they weren't actually been former teachers. And they formed this thing called it was called the South West when Len I can't remember exactly what it stood for, but they worked for the education department and they looked at programs that could be enhanced, what teachers were doing and stuff. And so I worked pretty closely with them. We pitched it to some schools, they were excited about the program. 

10m 27s

Clint Adams 


We pitched it to the police because I also saw that, you know, if we were doing stuff way earlier on, it could potentially stop some, you know, criminal activity and delinquency and all the stuff that come with that. And so, you know, we got quite excited by, at that stage. I didn't know a lot about promoting my own stuff because I was kind of always worked in a, in a work environment rather than going in and trying to sell something. 

10m 52s

Dr. Isabel MD 


Yes. Marketing is big. The idea. Absolutely. 

11m 0s

Clint Adams 


That's something I'm still covered the terms 

11m 2s

Dr. Isabel MD 


With, so me too. 

11m 6s

Clint Adams 


So yeah, it's a, it was, it was different for me. And look, I tried to take it to a politician we've got quite high up and anyway, in the nutshell, it didn't go ahead. As, as I would've liked the lost an election, and then I'd start all over again. So I kind of shelved it for a while and just went back to doing a lot of work. I was doing stuff with asylum seekers to here to Australia. The way we deal with asylum seekers is to send them over to now Ru, which a lot of people are upset about. Cause I wanted to stop the boats for people drowning and all that stuff coming, trying to come to Australia. So a few years ago, they, they made the decision that they wouldn't allow anyone who came in illegally to Australia to actually come to Australia. They would go to Naru, be processed there. 

11m 48s

Clint Adams 


And then if they're genuine refugees, they could come to Australia where they'd get sent back to where they came from. So that gave me access to a lot of obviously your asylum seekers, you know, they've come with backgrounds that maybe are war torn, have seen some horrific things. You don't generally want to flee a country on this, you know, something bad has happened and that kind of stuff. So again, I started developing my programs a bit more to help our team deal with them, preventing self-harm and suicide and all that kind of stuff. And so that again, got me more thinking about, well, how can I apply my school program? How can I apply the stuff of dealing with my employees, but also the stuff we're doing to stop self-harm, you know, all that kind of stuff. 

12m 30s

Clint Adams 


And so then I came up with the idea of, of writing the book, which is a story about a person and it's, it's mainly fiction, but a lot of it's based on conversations and interviews I've had with people that have either tried to suicide. I've had someone suicide that were close to them have been bullied and all this kind of stuff. And so, you know, a lot of the, the content of the book is factual, but obviously the names are changed and all that sort of stuff. 

12m 54s

Dr. Isabel MD 


What's the name of the book. So 

12m 56s

Clint Adams 


The book is called lighting, the blue flame, that's up there. 

12m 60s

Dr. Isabel MD 


Why did you name it? Lighting the blue flame. So the, 

13m 5s

Clint Adams 


The blue part of it, I ran a program called red brain blue brain. So I explained to people about how, when you're stuck in a Migdal, a driven emotion, so fear, anger, guilt, shame, all those sorts of things. It's usually the amygdala that goes there and I call that red Brown. And when I'm working with people to try and change how they're thinking about stuff, I say, you need to be what I call a blue brain space, where we're using our frontal cortex. And you're thinking of, you know, solution-based things and that kind of stuff. And that's where blue comes from. So the blue flame itself comes from the color. Blue comes from that perspective in terms of the flame always liked the idea of if you're going to start something, you know, you want it to spread like a flying reach that starts with one little spot and then hopefully enough knock on effect a little ripples, just go out and creates this massive fly of sight. 

13m 56s

Clint Adams 


That's kind of where the name comes from. 

14m 0s

Dr. Isabel MD 


I love it. And you're, you're teaching people in that book. I haven't read it yet, but I will is don't react, respond. Cause we're so, you know, we're so taught to, and me being Cuban, I'm like, boom, like, do you remember? I love Lucy, Ricky, Ricardo. My father was Ricky Ricardo. So that's how I learned, you know, the strongest personality. And that's what these kids are learning is how to yeah. So good. I love that 

14m 36s

Clint Adams 


100%. So yeah, that's basically, so the books are written around this person. That's deciding they're going to commit suicide, but they want to see change within the school. So I'm a character in the book and I'm I'm myself in the book around helping the school. So the commits suicide, but he wants, you know, the, the, the school to understand the parents don't understand around who's bullied them, why, how it affected them, how the people that were watching them being bullied also had an impact and, and, and, you know, prevented things from happening. And so, yeah, it's in the book. I've come in as, as me helping the school. And I'm introducing my school program in the book to the principal and the teachers around saying, look, you know, we need to do a lot more earlier on. 

15m 22s

Clint Adams 


And, and part of it is about facilitated conversations. Like to your point around feeling comfortable, getting them to have the skills, to have conversations. Cause when I, I mean, you know, working with companies, I'm dealing with adults and I'm amazed how many adults won't deal with issues. Like if you're treating me badly at work, I should be able to say, Hey doc, you know, th that was very inappropriate or, you know, and feel comfortable to have these conversations, but people don't, they just can't do it. 

15m 50s

Dr. Isabel MD 


They get offended. They get bitter. I know, I know I get ya. Hey, so can I just ask you, because you're just saying so much and I want to ask a lot of questions. So let's say, you know, cause we've got a lot of parents that watch the MDM chef team podcast, listen to them, these chef team podcasts. So what kind of tips would you give to a parent whose kid is being bullied? She knows. He knows that they're being bullied. What would you recommend? Because you're in that space. Yeah. 

16m 24s

Clint Adams 


There's a couple of things. One is that the parents, so we're not talk about dialogue and conversations. What people don't understand is I use this thing called the dialogue model, which comes out of a book called crucial conversations. And in the dialogue model, it basically says with two people talking like we are right now, if there's even a hint of safety in the conversation, people won't talk about it. And this is where I encourage parents to talk to their children about creating safety for them to feel comfortable to talk about anything. Because a lot of times kids might be bullied. They don't want to say certain things because they feel scared about it. So they don't say they go underground and they suffer in silence. So a big part of that is a bit as a parent taking the step to actually create safety for your child, to have the conversation where you're saying no matter what I've said in the past, you know, sometimes like you mentioned, you know, our, my background too, my dad, I was born in South Africa, fairly robust dad, you know? 

17m 19s

Clint Adams 


And it was bad. You know, if you showed emotions too much to the old, suck it up, princess, you know, be a man, big boys don't cry and all that stuff. But that, that sends a message to you as a child around what you can talk to that person about and where, how you interact with other people outside of that as well. So, you know, that's why mental health is such a problem with, especially with males, they don't feel comfortable talking about it because it's seen as weakness it's seen as that. And if you're thinking, Oh, I don't want to be a weak baggy. You know? So I won't talk about my feelings. I'll just suffer in silence or I'll go and have a drink with my tongue. I don't talk. So, you know, encouraging parents to take the step to say, I've got to create safety for my child, because one of the worst things, when I was doing a lot of the research and talking to parents who have lost kids through suicide, a lot of them didn't know. 

18m 8s

Clint Adams 


They didn't see any signs. And you know, we have this idea that it's suddenly going to be this automatic audio. I could see that they're now struggling. And you know, now I've got to do something, but ultimately it's about being comfortable to say, I'm the parent. I'm going to have a conversation with my child and say to them, I want you to come and talk to me or mum, no matter what's going on, we can always figure out the solution, but don't feel uncomfortable to not talk to us about stuff. So for me, that's a key key part of it around encouraging them to talk, being comfortable to your point about having conversations with children. It's such a key piece, you know, sitting down and talking with them and getting them comfortable. One of the things I encouraged in the book is, is the teachers allowing children to calibrate behavior earlier on in the piece of school where it's facilitated conversations, it's creating safety, giving them an opportunity to feel courageous about talking about something they wouldn't normally talk about. 

19m 4s

Clint Adams 


But you know, doing it early, early on where it's not as hard to do, it's, it's become normal. I mean, one of the examples I use is the Harvey Weinstein stuff, right? Once one woman came out, amazingly, all these other women came out. Why? Because the safety was there now, you know, someone's already gone. First. The first person is the courageous one, the ones that came after, okay, is the courageous too, but certainly not paving the way for the others. The first one that did it, you go, wow. You know, some people sat on this for years and it's the same at the workplace. So those things are such an important part of the skill by. So, you know, there's a period of you're working with having that conversation, helping them with dialogue and, and, and having them talk about emotions. 

19m 46s

Clint Adams 


Most of them bad. I talk about red Brian and stuff, but it's, you don't, you know, you just don't want to be stuck there. That's where it becomes a problem. If you're constantly sad or constantly angry or constantly scared, it has an impact on your whole wellbeing. As, as you know, as a doctor, you know, people sometimes can conjure things up that aren't really there and then they just get stuck and then they can't get out of it. 

20m 9s

Dr. Isabel MD 


Oh, this stories we create under, under the hair is amazing. You really have to kind of step back and teach the kids and adults too. Hey, you need to pay attention to what you're saying to yourself. Cause you're there 24 seven. One of the things I teach is how to become the boss of your brain and not the brain of your boss. 

20m 37s

Clint Adams 


Very true. Very true. One of the things about the dialogue model, which I didn't mention is exactly that there's two, lots of dialogue going on. It's the interaction between there, but then the one that's up in your brain. So the way it's kind of written as you go, you see, or hear something, you tell yourself a story, you then feel a certain way, and now you act and you, you know, make creating that space between reacting, as you said before and responding very different. It's it's that, that gap of what story do you tell yourself? If someone says something to you that annoys you and gets you straight into what I call red, Brian, now you're in silence while it's fight or flight, right? So the conversation goes one of two ways, either back away, because you're not an aggressive person or you become really aggressive. 

21m 21s

Clint Adams 


And then, you know, it becomes an argument where people are just, they're not really talking the way they should be about the solution. They're talking about whatever's happening around them and how they're reacting in that moment. And that internal dialogue is such a key part of it, you know? Absolutely. 

21m 37s

Dr. Isabel MD 


Yeah. So you're, you know, with the kids, you're saying, okay, crucial conversations, making it a safe zone between the parents and the kids, and then the Congress teaching people about conversations they're having with their brain and pink stepping. Is there, are there other tips that you can give parents, you know, working with teenagers because here in New Zealand, we've got such a high suicide rate, and this is not just for parents. It's also for teachers because teachers are now the new Pat. 

22m 8s

Clint Adams 


Yeah. Look, one of the things I ran in my red Brown blue brain program is around helping people understand how their brains and their bodies interact. We have this view that we think rationally and we make decisions rationally, but we actually make decisions based on how we feel. And a big part of the initiatives in the red, Brown, blue rain stuff is about understanding how we develop patterns. And often we've developed patterns. We don't even know we've developed it, right. But if you're a child is, and this is where the risk factors come into it, like if you're a child has had childhood trauma that come and the exact number now, but it's like three or four times more likely that you're going to have issues in a mental health space in the future because of that trauma. 

22m 53s

Clint Adams 


And part of that is that, you know, when you're a child, you take things in passively. So if you've got domestic violence happening around you, that just becomes normal. So you don't really think about it, but it's affecting the undercurrent of views or how you feel becomes a problem. So some people that, you know, you see them as kids and they think they're shy. There's actually a fear factor in what's happening around them because they don't want to interact with other people or they see that as bad or they're scared. So there's a fear factor for wanting to do that. So that affects all their lives. So a big part of, you know, as parents is about really focusing on, and this is the dance side of it is that generally parents who were causing some of that kind of grief in that kind of trauma, aren't going to be good role models. 

23m 34s

Clint Adams 


So, you know, you're kind of preaching to the wrong people. The people that really want to do well with the kids and doing all those things and encouraging and all that is fantastic. They will focus on doing these things. And then we'll look at different ways of getting my child to be more robust up here and, and problem solving when they have issues and having those conversations or adding skills to the chart and then go, Hey, you're right. To be angry. I see. Cause a lot of times, you know, we as parents, you kind of go, if the kids says something that annoys you, you go straight into don't do that or 

24m 7s

Dr. Isabel MD 


Guilty. Are you aware, do your kids? 

24m 13s

Clint Adams 


I do. But my mine are older. Their minds are 26 and 24 shortly. So yeah. 

24m 17s

Dr. Isabel MD 


So remind, so where am I now? I'm still like thinking, Oh, I could have done that part a little bit better. That's okay. 

24m 27s

Clint Adams 


And look there, there's no perfect way to pair it. Right? Like, I mean, sometimes there's things that, you know, from a safety perspective that you kind of want them to really get it because you don't want to get run over by a car when all that stuff it's so it's book. It is tough, but I think it's important that as a parent, you can kind of go back, think about it and go, well, what can I do differently? How can I help them? How can I encourage them? 

24m 50s

Dr. Isabel MD 


I'll be a better grandparent. 

24m 57s

Clint Adams 


Yeah. But then I guess for me, it's about understanding a bit more. One of the, I suppose one of the aims for me is about, I wrote an article not long ago about an unconsciously incompetent parents. So when you don't know what you don't know, and when I run these sessions with adults, they come to me afterwards and they're in their fifties and they go, wow, I didn't know a thought about that. I didn't know that I have these patterns of thinking and it's, it's enlightening for them. So part of this process is about saying, well, if you're, if you're unconsciously competent and you're hearing this stuff, and then you become consciously competent, you might want to go and find out a bit more about this stuff. I'm not the font of all knowledge on this. There's a lot of books out there, you know, Joe, Dispenza's, stuff's out there. 

25m 39s

Clint Adams 


Awesome staff go and read, go and think, go and ask questions. And at least if you're doing that and you add, you know, we're all going to experience some trauma in our lives. You know, if you've lived more than a year or two, I think you're going to explain some trauma in your life. And so we can't avoid that. We have to be able to just, how do we deal with it better? We're going to have grief in our lives. How do we deal with that better you can't, you know, one of the sayings is when you're going through hell, don't stop. Just keep going 

26m 9s

Dr. Isabel MD 


There. Yeah. Very good. 

26m 12s

Clint Adams 


I'd say you're using that high emotional components. Again, again, the emotions aren't bad for you, but don't stay and get stuck there. You can be sad when you think about someone that you've lost, you're allowed to do that. That's humanity, right? But don't let it become all day. Every day, I I've dealt with two police officers who have a son, unfortunately, that had drowned and he was only four or five and they really struggled to deal with, you know, they kept his room exactly the same and all this kind of stuff for them. They just got stuck in that higher level emotion of, of the sadness. And obviously, you know, it's a massive grieving process, but you know, for them to actually then become some kind of normalcy, I know you're never going to fill that hole, but being able to still be productive in their lives was a big part of how we had to change. 

26m 59s

Clint Adams 


What they were thinking about is instead of again, using red, Brown, blue, right. That we're focusing on all the stuff they lost. And then it was more in said, well, let's focus on all the stuff you did get with him and what can you do now to enhance the memory of him and that kind of stuff. So I had to change their focus from red into that blue, where they're now thinking of solutions. And they came up with a foundation for him and all that sort of thing, 

27m 20s

Dr. Isabel MD 


Because, you know, I know, I know I'm still learning. All this stuff is the subconscious develops train tracks. And we get stuck in those train tracks. So we have to be consciously aware of what seeds we're planting and creating new train tracks in the brain that we want to be following. So you're helping people switch, train tracks in their subconscious, which does like what 90% of our lives runs are pretty much 90% of our lives. I wanted to ask you parents and children and social media, but what can you offer people? And even like, I get bullied on social media. I'm like, I can't believe you said, you know, there's always going to be haters. 

28m 5s

Dr. Isabel MD 


Not everybody's going to love you. Not everybody loved Jesus. So Hey, it just, that's just the way it is, but I know that now, but what do you, what do you say? Okay. 

28m 15s

Clint Adams 


So when you think about interactions, again, the dialogue model stuff comes into the equation. When you're talking face-to-face, it's a lot, I'll say difficult. If you think that the person's going to react a certain way, then you might be a little bit more thoughtful about what you say. The thing about social media is it allows you to be the old anonymous keyboard person, you know, and then they can, they feel more courageous and they can put a comment out there or an opinion. And, and, and I guess the skill he is about really working with parents on how their kids can understand that to your point, not everybody's going to like you are going to be okay with that. And you know, sometimes again, fear factor comes into it. 

28m 57s

Clint Adams 


So it's about encouraging them to say hi, you're allowed to say things. And other people have to say things, but you don't have to all be taken on board. So if you understand that something's hurtful. Like I'm sure when you see some of that, you might go, Hey, that's not really a nice, but you kind of let it just flow off you and go out while that's their opinion. I'm not going 

29m 17s

Dr. Isabel MD 


To. 

29m 20s

Clint Adams 


Yeah, exactly. 

29m 22s

Dr. Isabel MD 


But I have to do that in my mind. It's an action. 

29m 25s

Clint Adams 


Yeah. Yeah. So all the things like that is exactly the type of activities that people have done. The standing, you can take it in, you can go, okay, it's just feedback, right. How you frame it in your mind is the key part of it. So if, if, if someone puts online cleanser ugly or something like that, and I'm a teenager, you take that on board and there you go, Oh, you know, now they become self-conscious or whatever. But part of that is encouraging your child and talking to them about how did that make you feel? Oh, I've felt angry about it or that kind of stuff. Yeah. That's an emotion. But now does that personally mean anything to you? So it's about helping you frame yourself into a blue brand thinking space. 

30m 5s

Clint Adams 


So even if you're analyzing, you're using that prefrontal cortex, that's where analysis work gets done. And so, you know, getting them, talking, thinking about it, but not letting it go into a red space is a really important thing. We're not teaching people with, you know, doing mental health, first aid kind of stuff. And the dealing with someone who's maybe suicidal. I know I'm digressing from the kids stuff, but it's the same kind of model. It's, it's, it's the same kind of approaches around saying, you're trying to take them out of a red Brian space into a blue, Brown space. However you do that. It doesn't matter asking them questions, getting them to think about things, get them to analyze things. It's all shifting in the blue brain spaces. So, you know, in the moment when, when people are dealing with that, the first thing when we did police work too, was about you staying calm. 

30m 50s

Clint Adams 


I can't stop you from going into a red brain space right now, but I stay calm and I'm in a blue brain space. I can actually have a bit of conversation with you and maybe I can calm you down. But if I go into, you know, crazy mode, then you're more likely to do that yourself. So that's kind of the first part. And then that's the key, 

31m 11s

Dr. Isabel MD 


I just want to add for parents, they can't go into the red zone when their kids tell them I'm being bullied. Look at what they just posted. You know, we, we gotta, we gotta be in the blue zone before we even let anything out of our mouth. So we've got to switch, correct? Yeah. Good point. 

31m 29s

Clint Adams 


The solutions think solutions, you know, because that is a blue brain experience. The moment you go, okay, how can I help my child rather than go, Oh crap. I don't know what to do. And that's a part of the problem with what I'm doing. Even the mental health, first aid stuff, people don't know what to do. And part of it is, you know, they go into the R U OK day, you know, talk about social, suicide awareness and stuff. It's fine to ask people the question, but what if they actually say, no, I'm not okay. Then you go, Oh, you know, and then panic kind of sets in. And then they either say nothing, which makes it worse. Cause the person that I've just told you, I'm not okay. Then you've just gone and left me now. I feel even more abandoned. So it's, it's understanding enough about how the brain works, how we want to try to focus them from red into blue. 

32m 16s

Clint Adams 


So asking questions is a key part of it. You know, when I'm talking about mental health first day asking lots of questions. So how did that make you feel? What are you trying to focus on a future state for them is important. Let's say, you know, how do you think your parents would feel about this or, or, you know, and having them have to think about how their parents might think about them to siding or doing something to themselves is again, a blue brand experience. So they have to think about put themselves in that person's position, all that kind of stuff. So, you know, yeah. Really big part of it is about asking questions and, and keeping yourself calm as is such a key part of it. 

32m 54s

Dr. Isabel MD 


Oh my gosh. So true. And the mental resilience that we've got to have plus we're teaching others. 

33m 1s

Clint Adams 


Absolutely. Absolutely. It's a very good word because as I said, you know, we, we, humans things are going to happen to us. And if we've got no coping skill and we're talking about coping skills, any skill that allows you to at least stay calm, think about things and then make a reasonably rational decision rather than find a firing from the hip where I feel angry. I'm just going to lash out. But understanding some of that is such a key part of it. 

33m 29s

Dr. Isabel MD 


You do? What are you signed up? Okay. So let's go deep now plan. So why don't you share with us some of your, your men, your tactics to be mentally resilient? 

33m 42s

Clint Adams 


Look, especially my police days when I, I obviously have been the suicides of benders, some horrific stabbings and all that kind of stuff. A big part of it for me is really using humor as much as it sounds bizarre when we would interact with the other cops. You know, you kind of might Claude off it a little bit and it's not always from the outside in, it looks like maybe being a little bit nasty, but you know, there is that coping component. The other thing is talking to people. I find I've always been a natural talker. If I am struggling, I'll talk to my wife about stuff. I was abused as a kid, by a family member and, you know, to be fair, I, I found that I didn't really struggle with it later on because I was able to get that happened. 

34m 28s

Clint Adams 


It's no longer in my life. I moved from South Africa to Australia. I haven't seen that person in a long time. And so for me it was okay. But you know, I talked to my wife about it. She gets more angry about it than I do, but you know, having the conversations, framing it in your head and then kind of going well, it's gone, it's a memory of an event. And so, you know, for, for me, I've always kind of been in the position where I can look at it, think about it might make you feel a certain way, but then being able to shift and having that ability and understanding your own Brian enough to go, it doesn't exist. It doesn't exist. Yes. It happened however many years ago that Clint is a different Clint now. 

35m 12s

Clint Adams 


And so yeah. Understanding a little bit about, you know, you mentioned about taking control of your own unconscious thoughts and, and Brian, you know, that that's a key skill. And that's part of the reason that I have been able to use some of those techniques myself, and I've seen it work for other people where you're, you you're consciously take control of your unconscious. Joe Dispenza used the example of like having a wild horse. And if you just let it run, it can take you to some very bad places. But if you ran it in and actually directed where you want to go, it'll go wherever you need it to go. So taking control, understanding that like one of the techniques I use is about you being a director in your own movie. 

35m 55s

Clint Adams 


So people will speak in a PTSD moments about saying, okay, talk to me about prevent, frame it up. Like it's in a movie, you're the director let's rewind now, what do you want to cut out? And you want to change it, what actors, or want to add to it, because that is your brain thinking about that event. Nobody else that thinks that actual event is so far gone and only exists in the ether somewhere and in your brain. So you can change those things. And so understanding that you can change and be deliberate is a key key part of, of the things I try and really instill in, in the program 

36m 29s

Dr. Isabel MD 


And in yourself. 

36m 31s

Clint Adams 


And it must, I'm not always as good as someone <inaudible> right. So I kind of have to really cover myself. They all three quick breaths has always a good step to 

36m 41s

Dr. Isabel MD 


Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well about laughter I'm all for laughter. Did you ever, did you ever know this? Did you ever see this movie called patch Adams? Yes. Yes. Well, patch Adams is actually a real doctor that I, I studied under and he and 19, yeah. In 1999, we went over to Bosnia and went into the refugee camps and just help people out and that, so we were all dressed as clowns. We were doctors. And that was when I learned that was like a big turning point, the power of humor and learning how to laugh and joy. I couldn't speak with these people, but I could speak with them because we were able to smile and have fun. 

37m 24s

Dr. Isabel MD 


So I'm all for laughter. And I loved the director of your own movie, you know, before the age of 11, this is something that I read before the age of 11, everything that somebody says to us, it's like the door's wide open everything, a parent or a relative or a friend or a teacher says to us, it gets planted into our subconscious and we believe it. But then after the age of 11, we can actually close that door and go, no, you know, that's when the teen X, those are called preteen and we have to kind of wake up to the fact, is, are you going to let what somebody said before the age of 11 affect you for the, what if you live to be 120, and are you going to let that affect you for all those years, you've got to kind of have to learn how to pull out those weeds. 

38m 15s

Dr. Isabel MD 


And, and I love what you're talking about, mental resilience and teaching people to, to, to look at their thoughts and have crucial conversations. And, and I love it. And I, I see you helping, serving and adding value to millions of people around the world with the work that you're, Oh, you will, you will just, it's all timing, right? 

38m 44s

Clint Adams 


Yeah. There's a lot of things going on. A lot of people being interested in it, so that that's been well-received and when I have run them, you know, you get the feedback, which is great. And, you know, in the past I've had individuals come and talk to me about stuff that I've helped them with and how that's done. So yeah, it all, it all, it makes you feel good about doing it, but also making sure that it's it's effective. And so for me, like, I mean, if I looked back on my counseling days, I really didn't, even though I did my counseling, I did a psych degree. And then I did the counseling, which was another post psych thing at university. I never actually felt that I was adequate as a, as a counselor. I needed to know more. And so I found that over the years, as I interacted with more people, I felt I could change. 

39m 28s

Clint Adams 


So for me personally, I think counseling is great, but it's all, one-on-one mostly, you know, so you can only get to so many people when, when, when you look at the bigger picture and this is kind of where the years of different roles as come into it, for me is about saying I'm not aligned to just one model of, you know, helping people in a site space. Some people are all about CBT or all about a particular framework. I don't see it like that. I think there's many ways to the top of the mountain and going, and actually exploring to your point around, you know, what, 11 year old or 12 year old goes, okay, what have I learned in the past? Why have I got this current? Why do I feel fearful? 

40m 9s

Clint Adams 


Why do I feel angry, blah, blah, blah. No one really does that as far as I can see. And so asking them those questions and encouraging them to talk about it is the way to do it. How do you reflect, how do you do that? You know, people write journals and all kinds of things, again, lots of different ways to get to a better Headspace. So for me, it's about going and exploring those things and, and just thinking about that a little bit from getting okay, and as a parent, you know, if you can, obviously, if you're a good parent and you can do those things and be a good role model and talk to your kids, yes. He never going to get a right. There's no tick every box kind of thing that can happen in Parenthood as you know. 

40m 46s

Dr. Isabel MD 


Yeah. 

40m 49s

Clint Adams 


Excuse me. So, yeah, it's about exploring different options and looking at different things and giving you kids exposure to, you know, as many good experiences as they can be and, and allowing them to go and try things and talking to people. And you know, that, that to me is it's such a, an important part of it, but the social media, part of, sorry, I've missed a bit on that was also about, you know, getting people to go and talk to people. If you've got a problem with someone, go and talk to them, behave in a social media war with them. If you know them personally, that is, you know, those kinds of things are important. I do think dialogue is a little bit of a dying up in terms of, you know, people's you see that all the time in a restaurant, five people at a table and they're all on their phone. 

41m 31s

Clint Adams 


No, one's talking to each other. So that's a little bit also about, you know, some rules around stuff like that with your children and, and encouraging good talk. Cause it's good to, you know, when you learn your conversations. Cause I remember as a kid watching my parents interact and, and that kind of stuff, exposure to, to having adult conversations, isn't always a bad thing. I know. Sometimes we tell the kids are, you know, you get out of the room, you don't want to be part of this conversation, but they're crucial skills that I think people need to talk about it a bit more. 

42m 1s

Dr. Isabel MD 


And that's the bottom line is people don't know how to have conversations. Very true, very, very important. I wanted to say, have you looked into doing virtual masterclass on zoom, you know, for thousands of people so that you can reach more people. 

42m 18s

Clint Adams 


I have thought about something similar. There's some things on what's it called clubhouse, which is more of a, I don't know if you're involved with clubhouse, which is, you can set up a room. It's like a chat room, but it's live. So it's not recorded, but people can jump in talk. I've had a few conversations with some people, but yeah. In a similar vein, if you could just jump in. But yeah. I mean, it's, there's no reason that we couldn't do something that I've been on a couple of summits where the suicide prevention summit last year, it was more like a proper public speaker kind of environment. But yeah. I mean, that's definitely something that I probably should think about. 

42m 57s

Dr. Isabel MD 


Yeah. Cause you can reach so many more people. I'm just dropping a seed. I'm planting the seed. Like my husband said, you're planting another seed, aren't you? And I go, yes. And I will be watering that Zee. 

43m 11s

Clint Adams 


But I look at sounds like, I mean, again, it comes down to the marketing and who comes to it I guess. But yeah, I'd be definitely open to doing something like that. For me, it's about spreading the word and getting people, just thinking about it differently and going, Oh, okay. Do that now. I think I didn't realize that all, if I am struggling, you know, again, if you're in hell, don't stop, you got to keep moving. So what's that kid moving bit look like for each person, you know, if they keep going back to the sadness or the fee, then they just don't move on. And that's, that's the key piece, whatever gets you through, like, you know, the beauty about this whole stuff is that, you know, some people find religion, some people do exercise, some people jump out of a plane, you know, this is their thing. 

43m 53s

Clint Adams 


So whatever changes for that person is the key part of it. But the exploring options is, you know, a consistency. I think people need to think more about, 

44m 3s

Dr. Isabel MD 


Right. And instead of numbing the pain with alcohol drugs, pornography, gambling, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yep. Pull off the scab and get it healed. You know, it's just, yeah, I know. But it's, we all, nobody wants to feel any pain and it is painful to, to, to, to get healed. Healing is a painful experience, but it's so worthwhile because then you find freedom. It is. And look, 

44m 32s

Clint Adams 


I mean, the other thing is, you know, there's all these other spinoff things that come with that. If you're in pain, I mean, you think of domestic violence. It's usually because the person, the perpetrator is feeling angry about something and they're just lashing out at this person and have nothing to do with their spouse or the person that they're doing it with. It's got to be with how they failing, like here in Australia, you know, you know, some of our indigenous people are stacking a past that makes them angry. It's a bit like the black lives matter stuff, right? Those people that are looting the place, they're not, they're not angry at the cop. They're just angry in general. So they lashing out and they're doing the things they do. Yes. There's nothing wrong with the protest, but where's all this anger. 

45m 13s

Clint Adams 


And do we really have to go burning police cars? And you know what I mean? Like nothing good is coming out of that, but you can kind of understand the anger in the paint up right there. This is the outlet almost. So, you know, we've got to deal with those things at that level a lot better. And as a society, we should be looking at gang war. How do we get people out of that Headspace? Because if I'm angry all the time and more likely something bad is going to happen eventually, you know, whether it's taking it out on someone else or, or doing something silly or, you know, going in, whatever happens, you know, and that's a lot of looking at the symptoms is a key part, but just dealing with the symptom is not enough. 

45m 54s

Clint Adams 


We need to go to the root cause. And then to your point around helping them heal will actually lead to better things on later on. And so the earlier we can get to those ones 

46m 5s

Dr. Isabel MD 


And hopefully they want to heal very true. Cause my dad, my dad was such an alcoholic, you know, and like he's gone now and daddy I've forgiven him for all the junk he did. But you know, now that he's gone and like I'm safe, like he's gone and I'm able to look and go, okay, he was angry. So he drank, you know, and he had terrible conversation skills. He just knew how to yell. So that was his way of dealing with it. So, you know, that's a good lesson. Like I'm really grateful. I had that in my life because that helps me understand a lot of alcoholics. 

46m 47s

Dr. Isabel MD 


And so I wanted to also thank you for sharing your story because you know, now we can share it because we're like way over on the other side. But during that, that middle part, that struggle it's hard. 

47m 1s

Clint Adams 


Yeah, absolutely. And then I think, you know, people talking about their own issues and things that have happened helps with that because people can put themselves in that position and go, Oh wow. That happened to me. Or I can kind of deal with similarities or, you know, and, and, and everyone's coping mechanisms too. Like the thing about, you know, when we talk about even suicide, there's a lot of people focus on the ones that have suicide or that got into property. When you go the other way and say, do you realize how many people go through trauma as well? And they don't feel suicidal. Yes. They have a tough time, but most of them come out of it. Like if you really do the stats, you know, it's way in favor of the people that have dealt with it and dealt with it. 

47m 41s

Clint Adams 


Okay. Not everyone deals with it. Okay. But you know, this is kind of the, the importance of understanding that you can be, okay, you do have neuroplasticity. We can do more with what, you know, if we armed with the right knowledge and the right thinking and going through and analyzing some of this stuff, you can actually get through it. You can, there's lots of people have been through worse things. 

48m 5s

Dr. Isabel MD 


And that's the hope, you know, that you've got a gift to people. You got to serve that up on the plate. Cause people become hopeless in a difficult situation. And especially if they're holding it in, they're not going to share it. Well then, you know, young, 

48m 21s

Clint Adams 


The dialogue is crazy. Yeah. And it's funny cause it's, self-defeating, isn't it, you know, it's amazing when they go into that spiral. And then if you're actually thinking about the sequences of events and you're going by them thinking that way, the cortisol levels are going up. The other levels of other things are going down, they are now in a spiral where their body's working against them. Their thoughts are working against them. It's only going down and down and down even further. And then to your point, they don't look for solutions because they're just stuck there and they just see this as there's no other way out when they get to that final point of, you know, near suicide kind of stuff, then, you know, rational brains aren't around at the moment. 

49m 2s

Dr. Isabel MD 


No, it's just survival, survival brain. So now what's the name of your book before we cut, before we land this plane, let's send them your book, the book, 

49m 14s

Clint Adams 


The lighting, the blue flight. Yeah. 

49m 16s

Dr. Isabel MD 


My Clint Adams, Mike, Michael we'll go ahead and put the link on the podcast for everybody to take a look at 

49m 24s

Clint Adams 


Hello, chef Michael here. If you enjoyed today's episode, we would love it. If you subscribed to the podcast and left us a review.